Comments on: 1-state solution http://rhinocrisy.org/2006/08/1-state-solution/ Thu, 04 Dec 2008 05:42:26 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5 By: Hedgehog http://rhinocrisy.org/2006/08/1-state-solution/#comment-1251 Hedgehog Mon, 11 Sep 2006 08:54:41 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/?p=674#comment-1251 Crankyright: Which religion are you talking about when you say "there" (apparently meaning "their")? Jewish, Muslim, Christian, or Krikkit? And where did you get your information? <br/><br/><a></a><a></a>Posted by<a><b> </b></a><a HREF="http://rhinocrisy.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow" TITLE="">hedgehog</a> Crankyright: Which religion are you talking about when you say “there” (apparently meaning “their”)? Jewish, Muslim, Christian, or Krikkit? And where did you get your information? 

Posted by hedgehog

]]> By: hibiscus http://rhinocrisy.org/2006/08/1-state-solution/#comment-1250 hibiscus Tue, 05 Sep 2006 06:36:03 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/?p=674#comment-1250 to be parallel, you should say, "if the <i>jewish</i>  forces laid down their weapons." without this, it looks like you're holding your nose when speaking of hebraic folks. <br/><br/><a></a><a></a>Posted by<a><b> </b></a><a HREF="http://rhinocrisy.blogspot.com/2006/08/1-state-solution.html" REL="nofollow" TITLE="alohaflower at mindspring dot com">hibiscus</a> to be parallel, you should say, “if the jewish  forces laid down their weapons.” without this, it looks like you’re holding your nose when speaking of hebraic folks. 

Posted by hibiscus

]]> By: CrankyRight http://rhinocrisy.org/2006/08/1-state-solution/#comment-1249 CrankyRight Tue, 05 Sep 2006 04:43:24 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/?p=674#comment-1249 I truly think you are missing the point. There religion wants to wipe everyone who is not of there religion off the face of the earth.<br/><br/>Until that little sticking point is resolved there can be no solution.<br/><br/>Again…<br/><br/>If the Islamic forces laid down their weapons, there would be peace in the region.<br/><br/>If the Israeli forces laid down their weapons, there would be no more Israel.<br/> <br/><br/><a></a><a></a>Posted by<a><b> </b></a><a HREF="http://rhinocrisy.blogspot.com/2006/08/1-state-solution.html" REL="nofollow" TITLE="crankyright at gmail dot com">crankyright</a> I truly think you are missing the point. There religion wants to wipe everyone who is not of there religion off the face of the earth.

Until that little sticking point is resolved there can be no solution.

Again…

If the Islamic forces laid down their weapons, there would be peace in the region.

If the Israeli forces laid down their weapons, there would be no more Israel.
 

Posted by crankyright

]]> By: Anonymous http://rhinocrisy.org/2006/08/1-state-solution/#comment-1248 Anonymous Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:12:49 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/?p=674#comment-1248 hh, th'uthers said much for me, but i add that (if i have my dates right) american religiously-motivated expansion on the continent was completed before a commitment to rights for either african or native americans was on the table. to me this is an old-school liberty/security question, which means "inalienable" can be limited in scope by the power group's concept of who "all men" refers to. "savage" status remains the loophole in the american social contract. <br/><br/><a></a><a></a>Posted by<a><b> </b></a><a HREF="http://rhinocrisy.blogspot.com/2006/08/1-state-solution.html" REL="nofollow" TITLE="alohaflower at mindspring dot com">hibiscus</a> hh, th’uthers said much for me, but i add that (if i have my dates right) american religiously-motivated expansion on the continent was completed before a commitment to rights for either african or native americans was on the table. to me this is an old-school liberty/security question, which means “inalienable” can be limited in scope by the power group’s concept of who “all men” refers to. “savage” status remains the loophole in the american social contract. 

Posted by hibiscus

]]> By: saurabh http://rhinocrisy.org/2006/08/1-state-solution/#comment-1247 saurabh Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:08:11 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/?p=674#comment-1247 Saurav underscores what makes a one-state solution difficult: Israeli intransigence on the subject of the Jewish state. Worries about the "demographic problem" in Israel are an indicator. As long as many Israelis continue to believe that the security of the Jewish people depends on the existence of a Jewish-majority state with special rights for Jews, a one-state solution will be unappealing to them. I don't think Zionism is disappearing anytime soon (even israeli peaceniks believe in it), especially so long as groups like Hizbullah continue to reinforce the notion that others want to destroy the Jews through rhetoric and action, so I can't believe a one-state solution is reasonable, no matter how much I think it is desirable that everyone just learn to get along. Of course, I'm an advocate of no-state solutions, so... <br/><br/><a></a><a></a>Posted by<a><b> </b></a><a HREF="http://rhinocrisy.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow" TITLE="rednblack at alum dot mit dot edu">saurabh</a> Saurav underscores what makes a one-state solution difficult: Israeli intransigence on the subject of the Jewish state. Worries about the “demographic problem” in Israel are an indicator. As long as many Israelis continue to believe that the security of the Jewish people depends on the existence of a Jewish-majority state with special rights for Jews, a one-state solution will be unappealing to them. I don’t think Zionism is disappearing anytime soon (even israeli peaceniks believe in it), especially so long as groups like Hizbullah continue to reinforce the notion that others want to destroy the Jews through rhetoric and action, so I can’t believe a one-state solution is reasonable, no matter how much I think it is desirable that everyone just learn to get along. Of course, I’m an advocate of no-state solutions, so… 

Posted by saurabh

]]> By: sauravhttp://www.passtheroti.com http://rhinocrisy.org/2006/08/1-state-solution/#comment-1246 sauravhttp://www.passtheroti.com Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:56:14 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/?p=674#comment-1246 <i>I don't think that it's erasing U.S. brutality to continent's earlier nations, or erasing slavery, to say that the U.S. invented the notion of inalienable rights. The trick is that it took them a long time to recognize Africans and Americans as humans; with that done, the rights came with the package.The Israelis claim to recognize Palestinians as humans, but the rights lag behind.</i> <br/><br/>I think my difference of opinion with you is that it's not that rights for some classes (or racial groups or caste groups) lag behind but that their second-class status is fundamental to the maintenance of the system. That might have changed, to some extent (at least on an ideological level), in the U.S., post Civil Rights era, but many of my friends who are immigrant advocates point to the same process in terms of the construction of non-citizens as the marginal labor pool.<br/><br/>On the race question in the U.S., you should take a look at David Roediger's <i>Wages of Whiteness</i> (race and the formation of the American working class, is I think the subhead). It's informative on this perspective. It taught me the phrase "herrenvolk republicanism" :) <br/><br/><a></a><a></a>Posted by<a><b> </b></a><a HREF="http://www.passtheroti.com" REL="nofollow" TITLE="saurav at passtheroti dot com">saurav</a> I don’t think that it’s erasing U.S. brutality to continent’s earlier nations, or erasing slavery, to say that the U.S. invented the notion of inalienable rights. The trick is that it took them a long time to recognize Africans and Americans as humans; with that done, the rights came with the package.The Israelis claim to recognize Palestinians as humans, but the rights lag behind. 

I think my difference of opinion with you is that it’s not that rights for some classes (or racial groups or caste groups) lag behind but that their second-class status is fundamental to the maintenance of the system. That might have changed, to some extent (at least on an ideological level), in the U.S., post Civil Rights era, but many of my friends who are immigrant advocates point to the same process in terms of the construction of non-citizens as the marginal labor pool.

On the race question in the U.S., you should take a look at David Roediger’s Wages of Whiteness (race and the formation of the American working class, is I think the subhead). It’s informative on this perspective. It taught me the phrase “herrenvolk republicanism” :) 

Posted by saurav

]]> By: Hedgehog http://rhinocrisy.org/2006/08/1-state-solution/#comment-1245 Hedgehog Mon, 28 Aug 2006 05:56:38 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/?p=674#comment-1245 <b>Hibiscus, Saurav:</b>  I don't think that it's erasing U.S. brutality to continent's earlier nations, or erasing slavery, to say that the U.S. invented the notion of inalienable rights. The trick is that it took them a long time to recognize Africans and Americans as humans; with that done, the rights came with the package. The Israelis claim to recognize Palestinians as humans, but the rights lag behind. <br/><br/><b>Hibiscus:</b> I hear what you're saying that structurally, Palestine is a waiting room for prison, if not bullets. But I take hope from South Africa, which for all its fits and starts, has kept some of its national identity while more-or-less-peacefully transferring power to the group that had for decades been under the country's thumb. <br/><br/><a></a><a></a>Posted by<a><b> </b></a><a HREF="http://rhinocrisy.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow" TITLE="">hedgehog</a> Hibiscus, Saurav:  I don’t think that it’s erasing U.S. brutality to continent’s earlier nations, or erasing slavery, to say that the U.S. invented the notion of inalienable rights. The trick is that it took them a long time to recognize Africans and Americans as humans; with that done, the rights came with the package. The Israelis claim to recognize Palestinians as humans, but the rights lag behind.

Hibiscus: I hear what you’re saying that structurally, Palestine is a waiting room for prison, if not bullets. But I take hope from South Africa, which for all its fits and starts, has kept some of its national identity while more-or-less-peacefully transferring power to the group that had for decades been under the country’s thumb. 

Posted by hedgehog

]]> By: sauravhttp://www.passtheroti.com http://rhinocrisy.org/2006/08/1-state-solution/#comment-1244 sauravhttp://www.passtheroti.com Mon, 28 Aug 2006 02:53:00 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/?p=674#comment-1244 I've been hearing more progressives advance this view. It might have been plausible earlier and maybe it still is, but I think it might amonunt to the dissolution of Israel as a state as it currently stands. Ultimately, demogarphically, it's not plausible for Israel to exist as a Jewish state and a democratic state in a one-state solution (and it owuld probably be called Palestine). I doubt that that would be acceptable to Israelis.<br/><br/><i>It's sad that even here in the U.S., which was the first country based on the notion of inalienable rights, this is a controversial view.</i> <br/><br/>Hello? slavery / the construction of the Black race? That's a pretty strong argument to contend with in advancing the idea of a one-state multiethnic solution. <br/><br/><a></a><a></a>Posted by<a><b> </b></a><a HREF="http://www.passtheroti.com" REL="nofollow" TITLE="saurav at passtheroti dot com">saurav</a> I’ve been hearing more progressives advance this view. It might have been plausible earlier and maybe it still is, but I think it might amonunt to the dissolution of Israel as a state as it currently stands. Ultimately, demogarphically, it’s not plausible for Israel to exist as a Jewish state and a democratic state in a one-state solution (and it owuld probably be called Palestine). I doubt that that would be acceptable to Israelis.

It’s sad that even here in the U.S., which was the first country based on the notion of inalienable rights, this is a controversial view. 

Hello? slavery / the construction of the Black race? That’s a pretty strong argument to contend with in advancing the idea of a one-state multiethnic solution. 

Posted by saurav

]]> By: Anonymous http://rhinocrisy.org/2006/08/1-state-solution/#comment-1243 Anonymous Sun, 27 Aug 2006 18:30:33 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/?p=674#comment-1243 been reading <i>autobiography of malcolm x</i>  and a few other "civil rights"/human rights histories here. particularly now one can gather together how frightening the ghetto riots were to those who were in position to shoehorn the black population back into the big plan (after they got tossed from their war-earned social power). "they live in the ghetto because they're violent" is such a powerful narrative.<br/><br/>it seems palestine is a prison for people who are to be convicted in the future? i want to think that integration can work but i have a hard time believing the israelis are up to it, like the powerful folks in alabama and louisiana. to a select group, it's guilty-until-innocent with a case unprovable by any evidence. <br/><br/><a></a><a></a>Posted by<a><b> </b></a><a HREF="http://rhinocrisy.blogspot.com/2006/08/1-state-solution.html" REL="nofollow" TITLE="alohaflower at mindspring dot com">hibiscus</a> been reading autobiography of malcolm x  and a few other “civil rights”/human rights histories here. particularly now one can gather together how frightening the ghetto riots were to those who were in position to shoehorn the black population back into the big plan (after they got tossed from their war-earned social power). “they live in the ghetto because they’re violent” is such a powerful narrative.

it seems palestine is a prison for people who are to be convicted in the future? i want to think that integration can work but i have a hard time believing the israelis are up to it, like the powerful folks in alabama and louisiana. to a select group, it’s guilty-until-innocent with a case unprovable by any evidence. 

Posted by hibiscus

]]> By: Anonymous http://rhinocrisy.org/2006/08/1-state-solution/#comment-1242 Anonymous Sun, 27 Aug 2006 07:31:46 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/?p=674#comment-1242 Reminds me of an another time when the two nation vs one nation theory was hotly discussed - India, 1947. <br/><br/>The two nation was chosen. It was to be an ethnic divide. What came of it? How I wish it had never happened.<br/><br/><a></a><a></a>Posted by<a><b> </b></a>Anonymous Reminds me of an another time when the two nation vs one nation theory was hotly discussed - India, 1947.

The two nation was chosen. It was to be an ethnic divide. What came of it? How I wish it had never happened.

Posted by Anonymous

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