Comments on: Food for thought http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/food-for-thought-2/ Fri, 21 Nov 2008 09:23:56 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5 By: Jym http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/food-for-thought-2/#comment-4180 Jym Tue, 03 Apr 2007 21:46:15 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/food-for-thought-2/#comment-4180 =v= The last British"Beyond" Petroleum greenwash ad I saw was trying to be cutesy about cars "eating their vegetables." Of course, it's <i>our</i> vegetables they'd be eating. They're killing us in so many ways already, now let's add starvation to it! Brazil's biofuels (sugar cane and an increasing amount of soy) are depleting soil and prompting deforestation, which means plenty of <a href="http://www.commondreams.org/headlines07/0305-05.htm" rel="nofollow">carbon emissions</a>. So it's not all that sustainable now, and would be less so on a greater scale. =v= The last British”Beyond” Petroleum greenwash ad I saw was trying to be cutesy about cars “eating their vegetables.” Of course, it’s our vegetables they’d be eating. They’re killing us in so many ways already, now let’s add starvation to it!

Brazil’s biofuels (sugar cane and an increasing amount of soy) are depleting soil and prompting deforestation, which means plenty of carbon emissions. So it’s not all that sustainable now, and would be less so on a greater scale.

]]> By: cavjam http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/food-for-thought-2/#comment-1667 cavjam Mon, 12 Mar 2007 12:19:53 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/food-for-thought-2/#comment-1667 a) sugar cane produces more ethanol/acre than corn, and does so with less erg input. I'm not sure of the quantitative difference, but it's sizable enough to make sugar cane viable for fuel purposes and to put corn on the fence of viability. b) seed corn certainly <i>is</i> used to make masa harina which is then used to make corn tortillas, the staple of the Mexican diet. a) sugar cane produces more ethanol/acre than corn, and does so with less erg input. I’m not sure of the quantitative difference, but it’s sizable enough to make sugar cane viable for fuel purposes and to put corn on the fence of viability.

b) seed corn certainly is used to make masa harina which is then used to make corn tortillas, the staple of the Mexican diet.

]]> By: hedgehog http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/food-for-thought-2/#comment-1654 hedgehog Tue, 06 Mar 2007 18:14:52 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/food-for-thought-2/#comment-1654 Jake - It doesn't matter whether people eat the corn in its raw state. Feed corn, as the reds say in their conversation, could be used for chickens and cattle or it could be used for cars. And the soil that grows feed corn could be used to grow corn used for people. Plus, I'm curious where you're getting your information. Are you saying there are different varieties grown just for ethanol? It doesn't change my main point but it's interesting. If you're saying that people don't eat feed corn you're mistaken: it's routinely used for grits, corn meal, breakfast cereal and most of all corn syrup -- hence the troubles with StarLink. Jake - It doesn’t matter whether people eat the corn in its raw state. Feed corn, as the reds say in their conversation, could be used for chickens and cattle or it could be used for cars. And the soil that grows feed corn could be used to grow corn used for people. Plus, I’m curious where you’re getting your information. Are you saying there are different varieties grown just for ethanol? It doesn’t change my main point but it’s interesting. If you’re saying that people don’t eat feed corn you’re mistaken: it’s routinely used for grits, corn meal, breakfast cereal and most of all corn syrup — hence the troubles with StarLink.

]]> By: hibiscus http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/food-for-thought-2/#comment-1653 hibiscus Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:43:26 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/food-for-thought-2/#comment-1653 oh funny. i found a energy.gov site that said 335 gallons per acre, or about 20 barrels per hectare. that's flipped from their conversation. counting inputs, you could call it a near zero energy gain if you wanted. it wouldn't be totally honest but it wouldn't be entirely wrong. so if you wanted to make a good rhetorical trick and turn the claimed 20:1 ratio on its head, after correcting for inputs, you know, like, <i>snort</i> "more like 1 in <i>20</i>" -- that'd allright. oh funny. i found a energy.gov site that said 335 gallons per acre, or about 20 barrels per hectare. that’s flipped from their conversation. counting inputs, you could call it a near zero energy gain if you wanted. it wouldn’t be totally honest but it wouldn’t be entirely wrong. so if you wanted to make a good rhetorical trick and turn the claimed 20:1 ratio on its head, after correcting for inputs, you know, like, snort “more like 1 in 20” — that’d allright.

]]> By: Jake http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/food-for-thought-2/#comment-1652 Jake Tue, 06 Mar 2007 00:54:03 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/food-for-thought-2/#comment-1652 Believe me, you don't want to eat the corn that is used to produce ethanol -- it most certainly is <i>not</i> used to produce tortillas for anybody, unless somebody is getting creative with the feed before they take it out to the cows. Simply put, there's nothing that significant numbers of human beings use as food being turned into fuel here. Chavez simply wants to keep selling oil. Believe me, you don’t want to eat the corn that is used to produce ethanol — it most certainly is not used to produce tortillas for anybody, unless somebody is getting creative with the feed before they take it out to the cows. Simply put, there’s nothing that significant numbers of human beings use as food being turned into fuel here. Chavez simply wants to keep selling oil.

]]> By: Saheli http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/food-for-thought-2/#comment-1651 Saheli Tue, 06 Mar 2007 00:42:39 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/food-for-thought-2/#comment-1651 Isn't Brazil producing ethanol from sugar cane, not corn? Corn ethanol strikes me as a bad idea for multiple reasons--and I'm terribly curious about the interplay between NAFTA and the infamous American system of corn subsidies--but non-corn ethanol for cars could still be a worthwhile pursuit. Isn’t Brazil producing ethanol from sugar cane, not corn? Corn ethanol strikes me as a bad idea for multiple reasons–and I’m terribly curious about the interplay between NAFTA and the infamous American system of corn subsidies–but non-corn ethanol for cars could still be a worthwhile pursuit.

]]> By: saurabh http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/food-for-thought-2/#comment-1650 saurabh Mon, 05 Mar 2007 16:47:31 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/food-for-thought-2/#comment-1650 Err, sorry, forgot he's talking in hectares. 13 barrels per acre is 32 barrels per hectare, which puts him off by a factor of <b>640</b>. Err, sorry, forgot he’s talking in hectares. 13 barrels per acre is 32 barrels per hectare, which puts him off by a factor of 640.

]]> By: saurabh http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/food-for-thought-2/#comment-1649 saurabh Mon, 05 Mar 2007 16:45:34 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/food-for-thought-2/#comment-1649 Chavez is totally lying, though. Brazil is currently producing ~700 gallons per acre, which is ~13 barrels of oil equivalent per acre (ignoring inputs). This puts him off by a mere factor of 260. Maybe he is accounting for energy inputted, but I don't think it's anywhere near that inefficient. Chavez is totally lying, though. Brazil is currently producing ~700 gallons per acre, which is ~13 barrels of oil equivalent per acre (ignoring inputs). This puts him off by a mere factor of 260. Maybe he is accounting for energy inputted, but I don’t think it’s anywhere near that inefficient.

]]> By: hibiscus http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/food-for-thought-2/#comment-1648 hibiscus Mon, 05 Mar 2007 16:38:09 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/food-for-thought-2/#comment-1648 that whole conversation is really something. i'm gonna start leaving polemics on note cards by my phone in case fidel calls <i>me</i>. or maybe he would call twice and the first time, we'd arrange the themes, topics and order of presentation for the second call. just to think about, i don't have a lot of confidence in current ethanol, but it won't take long for opponents to notice that hugo's in a competing fuel business. it doesn't matter terribly. where the two of them have influence, plans aren't going to be knocked around by US-based verbal barbs. that whole conversation is really something. i’m gonna start leaving polemics on note cards by my phone in case fidel calls me. or maybe he would call twice and the first time, we’d arrange the themes, topics and order of presentation for the second call.

just to think about, i don’t have a lot of confidence in current ethanol, but it won’t take long for opponents to notice that hugo’s in a competing fuel business. it doesn’t matter terribly. where the two of them have influence, plans aren’t going to be knocked around by US-based verbal barbs.

]]>