Comments on: Mars under water! http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/mars-under-water/ Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:48:33 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5 By: saurabh http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/mars-under-water/#comment-21875 saurabh Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:49:19 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/mars-under-water/#comment-21875 Hmm. Did I have an error? Looking at the topomap, it seems wrong. I got that height via the topomap above and the total volume in the ice caps. Yep, checked my math and it seems I made a mistake; forgot to convert some units. The actual height should be ~3500m, which only floods the lake/sea in the south. I'm not sure how the MOLA reconstruction worked; maybe they ignored that lake. Sigh. This is why peer review is useful. Thanks for the double-check. Hmm. Did I have an error? Looking at the topomap, it seems wrong. I got that height via the topomap above and the total volume in the ice caps.

Yep, checked my math and it seems I made a mistake; forgot to convert some units. The actual height should be ~3500m, which only floods the lake/sea in the south. I’m not sure how the MOLA reconstruction worked; maybe they ignored that lake.

Sigh. This is why peer review is useful. Thanks for the double-check.

]]> By: Tom http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/mars-under-water/#comment-21865 Tom Fri, 21 Dec 2007 14:05:15 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/mars-under-water/#comment-21865 The reason I ask is that http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/WebImg/MOLA-flood.jpg shows water to a depth of 1000m floods just the northern lowlands, and to almost 1500m only slightly more. The reason I ask is that http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/WebImg/MOLA-flood.jpg shows water to a depth of 1000m floods just the northern lowlands, and to almost 1500m only slightly more.

]]> By: Tom http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/mars-under-water/#comment-21862 Tom Fri, 21 Dec 2007 13:43:32 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/mars-under-water/#comment-21862 oops typo in email, last post oops typo in email, last post

]]> By: Tom http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/mars-under-water/#comment-21861 Tom Fri, 21 Dec 2007 13:42:49 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/mars-under-water/#comment-21861 How did you come up with the 90m number, please? How did you come up with the 90m number, please?

]]> By: BigSister http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/mars-under-water/#comment-1781 BigSister Tue, 20 Mar 2007 21:04:21 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/mars-under-water/#comment-1781 <i>a fascinating effort in fantasy mapping, that is also one of the best procrastinations I have ever seen</i> This makes me laugh for entirely big-sister related reasons. a fascinating effort in fantasy mapping, that is also one of the best procrastinations I have ever seen

This makes me laugh for entirely big-sister related reasons.

]]> By: hedgehog http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/mars-under-water/#comment-1780 hedgehog Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:59:09 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/mars-under-water/#comment-1780 It just occurred to me that the problem for you, Saurabh, being so damn brilliant is that no one has yet said the obvious -- nice work with the map! Very cool. Are you saying you added up the volumes of the layers at each elevation until it equalled the volume of the water in the ice cap? Cool stuff. And in addition to being a fascinating effort in fantasy mapping, that is also one of the best procrastinations I have ever seen. It just occurred to me that the problem for you, Saurabh, being so damn brilliant is that no one has yet said the obvious — nice work with the map! Very cool. Are you saying you added up the volumes of the layers at each elevation until it equalled the volume of the water in the ice cap? Cool stuff. And in addition to being a fascinating effort in fantasy mapping, that is also one of the best procrastinations I have ever seen.

]]> By: hedgehog http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/mars-under-water/#comment-1779 hedgehog Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:20:16 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/mars-under-water/#comment-1779 Depending on what kind of atmosphere you give this planet, the temperature balance could be anywhere from Venusian (hot) to current Martian (cold). But if it's something like Earth's temperature, there will be a big ice cap at the base of the southern hemisphere. The geologic record seems to show that when there is land over a pole, the climate cools on Earth, apparently because of ice caps and albedo. Sea ice isn't nearly as permanent as a terrestrial ice cap -- note the difference between Greenland and its oceanic neighborhood. Continental weather is much more intense than oceanic weather. The big mountainous land area on the left side of the map would be expected to have Siberian, Gobi, Himalayan types of extremes of moisture, temperature and seasonality. (Mars rotates at 25 degrees off the plane of its orbit around the sun; Earth is at 23.5 degrees; hence Mars would be somewhat more seasonal than Earth.) Just something to keep in mind as you amend the clouds. The northern ocean could be expected to have a near-perfect Coriolis effect, creating very powerful Hadley cells -- air rising at the equator and tumbling at the midlatitudes into great rainstorms; whirling northward and dissipating before reaching the pole. Hooray, we can talk about something more fun than the war! And now the rub: I suspect that the reason we don't see water on Mars is that volcanism ceased on that planet. Volcanism smelts metal oxides and releases water in the great plumes one sees daily at Popocatapetl, for example. (CO2, sulfur gases and other fumes also escape, but water is the biggest component of any volcanic eruption.) When volcanism ceased, the surface water mostly got stuck in iron oxides. (I've suggested this to planetary scientists in the past and gotten shrugs of agreement along with a great deal of indifference. It's annoying.) If there is a hidden ice cap under the south pole, it would be a shame to melt any of it, as it won't remain liquid for long -- on Mars, water is a nonrenewable resource that gets chemically bound to metal, just as oil is a nonrenewable resource here. Shit, we're back to the war. Depending on what kind of atmosphere you give this planet, the temperature balance could be anywhere from Venusian (hot) to current Martian (cold). But if it’s something like Earth’s temperature, there will be a big ice cap at the base of the southern hemisphere. The geologic record seems to show that when there is land over a pole, the climate cools on Earth, apparently because of ice caps and albedo. Sea ice isn’t nearly as permanent as a terrestrial ice cap — note the difference between Greenland and its oceanic neighborhood.

Continental weather is much more intense than oceanic weather. The big mountainous land area on the left side of the map would be expected to have Siberian, Gobi, Himalayan types of extremes of moisture, temperature and seasonality. (Mars rotates at 25 degrees off the plane of its orbit around the sun; Earth is at 23.5 degrees; hence Mars would be somewhat more seasonal than Earth.) Just something to keep in mind as you amend the clouds.

The northern ocean could be expected to have a near-perfect Coriolis effect, creating very powerful Hadley cells — air rising at the equator and tumbling at the midlatitudes into great rainstorms; whirling northward and dissipating before reaching the pole.

Hooray, we can talk about something more fun than the war!

And now the rub:
I suspect that the reason we don’t see water on Mars is that volcanism ceased on that planet. Volcanism smelts metal oxides and releases water in the great plumes one sees daily at Popocatapetl, for example. (CO2, sulfur gases and other fumes also escape, but water is the biggest component of any volcanic eruption.) When volcanism ceased, the surface water mostly got stuck in iron oxides. (I’ve suggested this to planetary scientists in the past and gotten shrugs of agreement along with a great deal of indifference. It’s annoying.) If there is a hidden ice cap under the south pole, it would be a shame to melt any of it, as it won’t remain liquid for long — on Mars, water is a nonrenewable resource that gets chemically bound to metal, just as oil is a nonrenewable resource here. Shit, we’re back to the war.

]]> By: saurabh http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/mars-under-water/#comment-1769 saurabh Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:06:14 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/mars-under-water/#comment-1769 Regarding an Antarctic pangaea (panariea?): not an unheard of situation. One caveat I should have made: most of the mass of ice is under the southern pole, and I didn't even attempt to account for the removal of that mass in my calculation, which would presumably leave a huge-ass hole (huge asshole?). So, maybe there would be some sea over there, too. Regarding an Antarctic pangaea (panariea?): not an unheard of situation. One caveat I should have made: most of the mass of ice is under the southern pole, and I didn’t even attempt to account for the removal of that mass in my calculation, which would presumably leave a huge-ass hole (huge asshole?). So, maybe there would be some sea over there, too.

]]> By: Scotto http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/mars-under-water/#comment-1768 Scotto Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:16:30 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/mars-under-water/#comment-1768 This is a great map to create -- but frankly, the results look kind of odd! All the land would be in the southern hemisphere? Maybe it's a trick of the projection, but it appears to be an antarctic pangaea, so to speak. The global version would look like a crystal ball on a wizard's staff; a blue orb nestled into a green hand. This is a great map to create — but frankly, the results look kind of odd! All the land would be in the southern hemisphere? Maybe it’s a trick of the projection, but it appears to be an antarctic pangaea, so to speak. The global version would look like a crystal ball on a wizard’s staff; a blue orb nestled into a green hand.

]]> By: Saheli http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/mars-under-water/#comment-1767 Saheli Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:09:37 +0000 http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/03/mars-under-water/#comment-1767 It would be kind of fun to have at least one watery feature named after Kartikkeya. I was thinking of an oblique allusion, like, the the Peacock sea or something for the big oval one. Medimaria also has an interesting ring to it. It would be kind of fun to have at least one watery feature named after Kartikkeya. I was thinking of an oblique allusion, like, the the Peacock sea or something for the big oval one.

Medimaria also has an interesting ring to it.

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