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	<title>Comments on: The T-shirt argument</title>
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		<title>By: hapa</title>
		<link>http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/08/the-t-shirt-argument/comment-page-1/#comment-12865</link>
		<dc:creator>hapa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 03:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/08/the-t-shirt-argument/#comment-12865</guid>
		<description>estimates i saw for a beneficial hourly minimum were between 70&#162; and $1.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>estimates i saw for a beneficial hourly minimum were between 70&cent; and $1.</p>
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		<title>By: saurav</title>
		<link>http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/08/the-t-shirt-argument/comment-page-1/#comment-12733</link>
		<dc:creator>saurav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 02:26:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/08/the-t-shirt-argument/#comment-12733</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t remember offhand from my days in anti-sweatshop work, but $1.10 an hour for an Indonesian garment worker seems like a high estimate :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t remember offhand from my days in anti-sweatshop work, but $1.10 an hour for an Indonesian garment worker seems like a high estimate <img src='http://rhinocrisy.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: hapa</title>
		<link>http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/08/the-t-shirt-argument/comment-page-1/#comment-12656</link>
		<dc:creator>hapa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2007 21:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/08/the-t-shirt-argument/#comment-12656</guid>
		<description>point taken. yeah, cash wise, i trust ordinary folks better, too. i meant more in the long term though, because i have this itch that says there&#039;d be less upper-middle (PPP) money moving around because of greater interest in durability or upgrades instead of replacement. that&#039;s a feature of a different economy and not really something i worry about and it&#039;s probably as minor as you otherwise said.

in re: opposition, there are also state and non-state industrialists in non-rich countries who feel that building a strong local socio-economy is neither of their concern nor to their benefit and who enjoy hanging union member body parts in their salon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>point taken. yeah, cash wise, i trust ordinary folks better, too. i meant more in the long term though, because i have this itch that says there&#8217;d be less upper-middle (PPP) money moving around because of greater interest in durability or upgrades instead of replacement. that&#8217;s a feature of a different economy and not really something i worry about and it&#8217;s probably as minor as you otherwise said.</p>
<p>in re: opposition, there are also state and non-state industrialists in non-rich countries who feel that building a strong local socio-economy is neither of their concern nor to their benefit and who enjoy hanging union member body parts in their salon.</p>
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		<title>By: hedgehog</title>
		<link>http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/08/the-t-shirt-argument/comment-page-1/#comment-12605</link>
		<dc:creator>hedgehog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2007 02:52:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/08/the-t-shirt-argument/#comment-12605</guid>
		<description>Saurabh, This same argument is always being made against the minimum wage, and it&#039;s fallacious. For one thing, the cheap labor in a t-shirt is a small part of the retail price. If a shirt sells for $10 and the labor portion is, say, 25 cents ($1/hour for 15 minutes, which seems like a long time) that you could multiply the workers&#039; wages 10-fold while increasing the embedded cost of the item by only $2.25. Even if that entire cost were passed on to consumers (rather than being shaken out of margins and other efficiencies), it&#039;s hard to argue that the losses to consumers -- an increase in t-shirt prices of 22.5%, and hence a 1/6 reduction in the number of t-shirts per year that a person can afford to buy -- outweigh the benefits to workers of a 10-fold increase in pay. 

Besides, higher pay is an incentive to replace workers with robots. In the U.S., Canada and Europe, even small organic farms use tractors because labor costs make hand-sowing and hand-reaping inefficient. As a result we have fewer people connected to the land (bad) and fewer people doing dull, exhausting work in the hot sun (good). In this manner you displace some workers, but over time they too find work at the new, higher minimum wage.

The price increases that result from a global minimum wage may be ok given that scarcity isn&#039;t the great crisis in the world right now. People everywhere have t-shirts and snack food, be they brand name and new or generic and cast-off. I&#039;m here in the &quot;third world&quot; where people living in general squalor are still well supplied with ham sandwiches and cable TV (drinking water is another story). There is plenty of stuff; if prices double and the wages of the poorest multiply 10-fold or 100-fold ($10 an hour instead of $1 a day), scarcity won&#039;t be the problem. 

There is no reason for t-shirts to be cheap. Made well, from good materials, a t-shirt can be worn every day for a year. You don&#039;t need piles of t-shirts, you can get by with one a year and if you need to pay $100 for it, so it goes. If everyone is making $10 an hour they can all afford a t-shirt a year at that price and get a lot of other benefits as well.

Hapa, your arguments about liquidity seem specious. Nothing is less liquid than the investments of the rich -- bonds, real estate, jewelry, art. The more cash that&#039;s in the hands of the poor, the healthier the economy as a whole would remain. Poor people are very reliable consumers, with none of this discretionary boom-bust crap about &quot;I&#039;m just going to keep my powder dry now, I think I&#039;ll put all my money in T-bills.&quot;

I think the reason that the global minimum wage has never taken off is simple -- the industrialists in the developed world have a powerful incentive to fight it, while those who would benefit are less organized and much less hopeful about their prospects for success. A classic case of diffuse and tremendous benefits for the world being outweighed by moderate but focused benefits for a special interest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Saurabh, This same argument is always being made against the minimum wage, and it&#8217;s fallacious. For one thing, the cheap labor in a t-shirt is a small part of the retail price. If a shirt sells for $10 and the labor portion is, say, 25 cents ($1/hour for 15 minutes, which seems like a long time) that you could multiply the workers&#8217; wages 10-fold while increasing the embedded cost of the item by only $2.25. Even if that entire cost were passed on to consumers (rather than being shaken out of margins and other efficiencies), it&#8217;s hard to argue that the losses to consumers &#8212; an increase in t-shirt prices of 22.5%, and hence a 1/6 reduction in the number of t-shirts per year that a person can afford to buy &#8212; outweigh the benefits to workers of a 10-fold increase in pay. </p>
<p>Besides, higher pay is an incentive to replace workers with robots. In the U.S., Canada and Europe, even small organic farms use tractors because labor costs make hand-sowing and hand-reaping inefficient. As a result we have fewer people connected to the land (bad) and fewer people doing dull, exhausting work in the hot sun (good). In this manner you displace some workers, but over time they too find work at the new, higher minimum wage.</p>
<p>The price increases that result from a global minimum wage may be ok given that scarcity isn&#8217;t the great crisis in the world right now. People everywhere have t-shirts and snack food, be they brand name and new or generic and cast-off. I&#8217;m here in the &#8220;third world&#8221; where people living in general squalor are still well supplied with ham sandwiches and cable TV (drinking water is another story). There is plenty of stuff; if prices double and the wages of the poorest multiply 10-fold or 100-fold ($10 an hour instead of $1 a day), scarcity won&#8217;t be the problem. </p>
<p>There is no reason for t-shirts to be cheap. Made well, from good materials, a t-shirt can be worn every day for a year. You don&#8217;t need piles of t-shirts, you can get by with one a year and if you need to pay $100 for it, so it goes. If everyone is making $10 an hour they can all afford a t-shirt a year at that price and get a lot of other benefits as well.</p>
<p>Hapa, your arguments about liquidity seem specious. Nothing is less liquid than the investments of the rich &#8212; bonds, real estate, jewelry, art. The more cash that&#8217;s in the hands of the poor, the healthier the economy as a whole would remain. Poor people are very reliable consumers, with none of this discretionary boom-bust crap about &#8220;I&#8217;m just going to keep my powder dry now, I think I&#8217;ll put all my money in T-bills.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think the reason that the global minimum wage has never taken off is simple &#8212; the industrialists in the developed world have a powerful incentive to fight it, while those who would benefit are less organized and much less hopeful about their prospects for success. A classic case of diffuse and tremendous benefits for the world being outweighed by moderate but focused benefits for a special interest.</p>
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		<title>By: hapa</title>
		<link>http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/08/the-t-shirt-argument/comment-page-1/#comment-12553</link>
		<dc:creator>hapa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 07:06:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/08/the-t-shirt-argument/#comment-12553</guid>
		<description>eh, sorry... &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.worldmapper.org/textindex/text_income.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;income maps&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>eh, sorry&#8230; <a href="http://www.worldmapper.org/textindex/text_income.html" rel="nofollow">income maps</a></p>
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		<title>By: hapa</title>
		<link>http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/08/the-t-shirt-argument/comment-page-1/#comment-12552</link>
		<dc:creator>hapa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 07:03:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/08/the-t-shirt-argument/#comment-12552</guid>
		<description>people living 50 years from now will probably have other worries....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>people living 50 years from now will probably have other worries&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: hapa</title>
		<link>http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/08/the-t-shirt-argument/comment-page-1/#comment-12551</link>
		<dc:creator>hapa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 07:02:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/08/the-t-shirt-argument/#comment-12551</guid>
		<description>liquidity would decrease. profits would subside. resources would be shared more effectively. revenue from successful gambles would be taxed more heavily. it would be ok. it would still be a flexible system and wouldn&#039;t create totalitarian monsters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>liquidity would decrease. profits would subside. resources would be shared more effectively. revenue from successful gambles would be taxed more heavily. it would be ok. it would still be a flexible system and wouldn&#8217;t create totalitarian monsters.</p>
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		<title>By: saurabh</title>
		<link>http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/08/the-t-shirt-argument/comment-page-1/#comment-12543</link>
		<dc:creator>saurabh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 03:51:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/08/the-t-shirt-argument/#comment-12543</guid>
		<description>Sure, I&#039;m not claiming that you can&#039;t have rising wages under capitalism. Wages rose in the US throughout the twentieth century. But it also meant that by the end of the 20th century, our crap labor had to go elsewhere - like China. But what is the steady-state? Where does the process converge? Sure, wages are rising in China. But once everyone there is unionized and has a nice minimum wage, the crap labor must flow elsewhere.

As to high-priced T-shirts and high-end food and the like, perhaps its true that people will simply be forced to pay more for necessary goods. But the math doesn&#039;t work out, for me. If I&#039;m making t-shirt worker wages, I can&#039;t afford expensive t-shirts, high-quality food, etc. People in the relatively affluent middle class can make those choices, but I don&#039;t believe they&#039;re open to everyone, or that minimum wages or consumer choice succeed in achieving that end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure, I&#8217;m not claiming that you can&#8217;t have rising wages under capitalism. Wages rose in the US throughout the twentieth century. But it also meant that by the end of the 20th century, our crap labor had to go elsewhere &#8211; like China. But what is the steady-state? Where does the process converge? Sure, wages are rising in China. But once everyone there is unionized and has a nice minimum wage, the crap labor must flow elsewhere.</p>
<p>As to high-priced T-shirts and high-end food and the like, perhaps its true that people will simply be forced to pay more for necessary goods. But the math doesn&#8217;t work out, for me. If I&#8217;m making t-shirt worker wages, I can&#8217;t afford expensive t-shirts, high-quality food, etc. People in the relatively affluent middle class can make those choices, but I don&#8217;t believe they&#8217;re open to everyone, or that minimum wages or consumer choice succeed in achieving that end.</p>
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		<title>By: aram</title>
		<link>http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/08/the-t-shirt-argument/comment-page-1/#comment-12504</link>
		<dc:creator>aram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 09:48:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/08/the-t-shirt-argument/#comment-12504</guid>
		<description>hey!  i tried to post something pro-capitalist (that wages in China are rising, contradicting predictions of unending oppression), and it never appeared.

so i guess the question is: have you programmed an anti-capitalist comment filtering robot?  or are you doing this with cheap indian labor?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hey!  i tried to post something pro-capitalist (that wages in China are rising, contradicting predictions of unending oppression), and it never appeared.</p>
<p>so i guess the question is: have you programmed an anti-capitalist comment filtering robot?  or are you doing this with cheap indian labor?</p>
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		<title>By: hapa</title>
		<link>http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/08/the-t-shirt-argument/comment-page-1/#comment-12397</link>
		<dc:creator>hapa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 01:43:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rhinocrisy.org/2007/08/the-t-shirt-argument/#comment-12397</guid>
		<description>hush or i&#039;ll smack you with my quantum ruler</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hush or i&#8217;ll smack you with my quantum ruler</p>
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